Music Credit: “NY” composed and performed by Kosta T, from the cd Soul Sand. Used courtesy of the Free Music Archive.
 
Jo Reed: From the National Endowment for the Arts, this is Art Works I’m Josephine Reed. 
 
At their best, cultural centers can be the heartbeat of any vibrant city, offering a space where history, art, and community converge. Today, we're exploring one such place, the 
 
The Gaillard Center in Charlestown South Carolina which has flourished as a cultural cornerstone under the leadership of its CEO Lissa Frenkel. The Center's programming honors Charleston's rich and complex history, from commemorating figures like Denmark Vesey to producing theatrical works about local heroes such as Robert Smalls.   Lissa Frenkel is here to discuss the Gaillard Center’s initiatives, and its commitment to present vibrant art that reflects the Charleston community, fosters meaningful dialogue and enriches the city’s cultural landscape. Lissa Frenkel, welcome! Thank you for joining me.
 
Lissa Frenkel: Thank you for having me, I'm delighted.
 
Jo Reed: Why don’t we begin with an overview of the Gaillard Center?
 
Lissa Frenkel: Absolutely. So the Gaillard Center Commission supports and presents multidisciplinary cultural programming across the genres. We have a gorgeous, acoustically stunning building here in Charleston, South Carolina that was just rebuilt in 2015 and is a wonderful place to hear music acoustically. It's a gorgeous place to see dance. But I'd say one of the other aspects that makes us different is that we are deeply rooted in the community here in South Carolina, and we're really committed to artists and partnerships locally, but mostly about our awareness of place. So the Gaillard sits blocks from Gadsden's Wharf, where 40 percent of enslaved Africans came in to this country for the first time and across the street from the Mother Emanuel Church. And of course, South Carolina is known for having a challenging history with civil rights. So we really feel obligated and really grateful to have a platform to have artists help us, guide us through some of these histories and be a place of substance and essential dialogue for our community to grapple with these histories and find our way forward.
 
Jo Reed: Well, tell me, how does that guide your programming and the initiatives that you undertake?
 
Lissa Frenkel: Well, I've only been here for three years, so I can't claim to be as entrenched in all of these histories as some of my community members. So one of the approaches that we've taken is we've been partnering with a lot of local institutions and organizations that do know these histories and really working with them to find the programs and curate with the artists that are most meaningful here. And that's been really rewarding, both because I think it lifts all of these other institutions, but also as I get to know my community and really develop deep roots here with the histories that exist. And then as I sort of believe, the artists are the ones that guide us and they have interesting things to say and always fascinating ways to tell different stories, and so we've been guided by that too.
 
Jo Reed: Well, probably a good example of something that happened under your watch was the Denmark Vesey Bicentenary. So why don't you talk about the programming that you scheduled around that, and we can use that as an example of what you're doing at Gaillard.
 
Lissa Frenkel: Absolutely. So I moved to Charleston from New York in 2021, and one of the first visits that I made in coming here was to get to know our friends across the street at the Mother Emanuel AME Church. And I went over there just to introduce myself and the historian there proceeded to give me the tour of the church and the history of the community, and a name that kept coming up was a gentleman named Denmark Vesey who lived in Charleston in the early 1800s. And the historian at the church said to me, so Denmark Vesey organized arguably the most sophisticated slave uprising in the country. And it never came to be because the plot was learned about before it was able to happen. And he and a number of community members were hung and or exiled because of this, and it happened in the summer of 1822. And he just stopped for a minute. And I said, "Oh, well, that's 200 years this summer." And he said, "Yes." And I said, "Well, what's happening to recognize that anniversary?" And he said, "Well, nothing yet." And so immediately I said, "All right, well, I have this big platform at a cultural institution, what would you like to do if you knew that you had this stage to start a conversation?" And that began the partnership that resulted in the Denmark Vesey Bicentenary, where we engaged our community from a number of different angles in the history of this important community member. And we looked at it through the lens of music. We had a free orchestral concert, which was just gorgeous, we looked at it through the lens of comedy, through popular R&B music and through conversation. And so there really was a way in depending on where you wanted to meet us. And we also partnered with the-- yet to be built at that time-- International African American Museum, who had a new leader who started just about the same time as me and was equally interested in understanding and featuring some of these untold stories that exist in this community and that don't often have the platform to be discussed as widely.
 
Jo Reed:  That bicentenary was a couple of years ago. Have you been able to see how the Charleston community has responded to it? I mean, there were the events that weekend, but I just wonder if you can see a carryover.
 
Lissa Frenkel:  I certainly have seen a carryover here at the Gaillard and a willingness to think of the Gaillard as a space, a place of substance and conversation. And in the partnerships that this has opened up. I mean, creating that event with our colleagues at the church and at the International African American Museum have created such tight bonds between our institutions, and we've partnered with them since then on many other programs. But it also taught me as I entered this community about the importance of partnerships and collaborations, and we've continued to do that with other institutions around our community. Just this spring, we hosted something called the Charleston Arts Convening, where we invited 30 different presenting organizations to come to the Gaillard stage, stand on the stage, have a cocktail with no audience, and just talk about ways where we could support each other and talk about histories that aren't being discussed and people who need to be given a platform. And it's already produced so many different ideas, so that's exciting. And then the other thing is, I think, as more and more as we become a place where people know to bring these stories to ensure that they are able to be explored through the arts. We were able to produce our first theatrical production this past fall about Charleston hero, a gentleman named Robert Smalls. And that would only have happened if we'd had the confidence of producing that first event on Denmark Vesey, and really seen the enthusiasm and support of the community in these efforts.
 
Jo Reed: Well, Finding Freedom, the journey of Robert Smalls was also Gaillard's first commission. So I really want to know why that was so important to you and your vision for the center that you become a commissioning organization too.
 
Lissa Frenkel: Yes. So that was our first self-produced theatrical project. We commissioned to work with a dance theater of Harlem as well before that, called “The Sounds of Hazel,” which is a new dance piece, which is stunning as well. But this first self-produced theatrical production was a really wonderful opportunity for us as a community to embrace a history, again, that wasn't featured in the curriculum traditionally in the schools or as extensively. And that is such an amazing story. It's a Charleston story. For those of your listeners who are unfamiliar, Robert Smalls was an enslaved man who grew up 30 miles from here in a town called Beaufort. He was sent to Charleston at age 12 to work on the docks by his master, to whom he sent his wages. And he became really a master of the sea. He was a great navigator, he knew all the parts of the ship, he was an engineer. And when the Civil War came, he saw the opportunity of this entire army that was outside the Charleston Harbor fighting for his freedom. And so he stole a boat on which he worked. And he was able to sail past the three major forts in the Charleston Harbor and then raise the white flag to the Union Army outside the harbor. But his story doesn't end there. He then went on to fight 17 major battles on behalf of the Union after petitioning Lincoln himself to allow the Black Americans to fight on behalf of the Union in the Civil War. He then came back to South Carolina and became a congressman here and was one of the architects of the first-- or the most progressive, one of the most progressive constitutions in the country in 1868. And he, I mean, it's hard to even count his accomplishments. He also is credited with being the architect of the first compulsory public education system in South Carolina, which was then the model for the nation. So this is a guy that I feel like everybody should know about, right? And so we were just delighted that he is a hero from Charleston and want him to be someone that everyone knows about. And so we were able to present this new theatrical work, both to 6,000 students from Charleston, four sold out performances, and to two audiences of multi-generational folks, public performances. It was a stunning piece of work. I have to give credit to our amazing director, Jamaica Holloway, and the amazing team that she assembled with us to create this work. But it was just so rewarding to see this story given its due on the stage. And we're hopeful that we're going to be able to get a tour of it off the ground next year so that we can be sure that the rest of America learns about Robert Smalls.
 
Jo Reed: Well, this was the first, if I'm correct, in an initiative you have of commissioning works that reflect underrepresented voices and stories. 
 
Lissa Frenkel: Yes. 
 
Jo Reed: Is that true? You plan to go on with this too?
 
Lissa Frenkel: Oh, completely. Yes. We are absolutely really focused on that. And we have a lot ideas for the next one. I don't have one to announce yet, we're focusing on getting this tour off the ground. But I think there are many artists around the country who have a similar idea and we have been curating and searching for works that we think would resonate in this community and also bring a spotlight to some of those stories. So the one that I think of that's another South Carolina story, is Step Afrika's Drumfolk, which we presented last fall. And although it was not a new commission, it was an extraordinary presentation of a story of the Stono Rebellion, which happened here in South Carolina. And one of the things that's really great about artists, even from outside Charleston, shedding a spotlight on some of this work, is that when they come here, because we're a small enough community and because we are so committed to this, we can do things like bring the entire company out to the spaces where the Stono Rebellion happened with a historian, have them engage with the histories and really feel it and know it and have it in their bones before they come and present to our audiences. And we're just committed to that because we feel so strongly about the importance of the ecology of the artists and really having folks engage with these histories in a way that feels authentic.
 
Jo Reed: How did you try and how are you continuing to try to appeal to a post pandemic public? Because habits have changed and so many more people access art online now.
 
Lissa Frenkel: I have just really believe in the live audience and I believe that people will come back and they have really come back here in Charleston. And I know that that's different depending on the genre and it's different depending on the place, but we really have seen audiences’ enthusiasm to this work and I think you do have a different experience of art if you have a collective experience. And our hope is that it really helps people open up conversation, especially in a country that is so divided. I mean, it's nice to be able to get in a room with people that you know you disagree with, experience the same thing, and have something in common.
 
Jo Reed: And what about accessibility? You're committed to community engagement and being absolutely embedded in the community, but going out costs money for a lot of people. And there's a diversity within the financial strata as well. So how do you try to overcome that, as a center?
 
Lissa Frenkel: Yeah. So we are lucky in that we have a number of supportive folks who also recognize that that's very important. And so we have something called community access fund, where we provide community tickets at low or zero cost to community groups and community members who find the price barrier an issue. And so we have that, we also have a wonderful program with our veterans called Vet Tix in our community. And we're able to provide tickets to the veterans through that program, which is, I think, really wonderful. We hear from them all the time about how meaningful that is. And then we have a student access fund. And so this is our way of saying, look, we understand that not all teachers can advocate to take their kids out of school, especially in middle and high school, to come and see the arts programming. Or sometimes we'll have Neil deGrasse Tyson, but he can only do an evening performance, and we want students to be able to come and experience that. And so we have a program where, for our Title I schools in particular, they can get access to evening performance tickets and even buses to bring folks to come and be able to be in dialogue with us and experience the work. So those are just a couple ways. I mean, we obviously look at ticket pricing just in general as well, and we have student tickets and all the things that people do, but we've been very deliberate about both creating access points and also giving people an opportunity to take a chance with us for the first time, where they might not want to spend $35, $50 on a ticket because they're not really sure what they're going to get, but that they might be willing to do that later because they have seen what an embracing place this is.
 
Jo Reed: Well, let's talk a little bit about arts education specifically, because I know you have a really robust program. Tell us a little bit more about that.
 
Lissa Frenkel: Yes, we're very proud of our arts education program. So we have about 20 main stage performances, we are able to serve about 30,000 kids a year, 70% from Title I schools, and the program is barrier-free for those who need it. So we pay for the buses and the tickets for all of those attendees, and this is just invaluable. In South Carolina, we have a huge amount of, just as it is everywhere, the arts education budgets have been slashed, and some of these schools have zero or very little arts education for the kids, or available funding for it, and so we not only bring the kids in for the performances, but we have a teaching artist program where we go in and do pre and post-show workshops with the kids to connect the work that they're going to see to their curriculum. So we have teaching artists who are former teachers and really understand the South Carolina curriculum at the various different levels and are able to weave that in ways that are accessible to the kids and age-appropriate and make the performances all that more meaningful. We also have a number of different programs embedded in the schools where we are able to go in, we have an arts literacy program where we work with a work of literature and we have the kids translate that with a different art form, with dance or sweetgrass basket weaving or whatever other art form our teaching artists can dream up, and we're really just extraordinarily proud of all the students we're able to reach. We had a statistic that we got this year, which is that we have reached-- since we started the program, we have reached, in less than 10 years, every single school in Charleston except for one. And we're working on that one, but that one is for a school who have very significant physical handicaps, and so they have trouble going on field trips, and so we've been out to see them, but they haven't come physically to the Gaillard, and so we're very, very proud of both the community embracing the program and the teachers really clamoring to be involved and also what an impact we're able to have.
 
Jo Reed: I have to talk about Spoleto USA, because that is so entrenched in Charleston, and much of it takes place at Gaillard.
 
Lissa Frenkel: Yes, we are very delighted to count Spoleto USA as one of our resident organizations. So when the building was rebuilt, Spoleto was one of the organizations that were very much in mind to make sure we had a world-class performing arts center here in Charleston. And we are one of the major locations of Spoleto, this year we had a gorgeous series of presentations here. It's really wonderful for me as an arts professional, it's one of the reasons that I was really interested in coming to Charleston because Spoleto has done such a wonderful job in both creating an adventurous arts audience and in allowing everybody to open up minds to what the arts can do and the type of engagement that it can provide. So yes, we're delighted to be part of that and to be one of the homes of Spoleto and we just look forward to that time of year so much because our whole city comes alive.
 
Jo Reed: You mentioned a little bit about what inspired you to take on the role of CEO at Gaillard. You had been at the Park Avenue Armory in New York, what brought you to Charleston?
 
Lissa Frenkel: Yeah, well, it was quite a move, it was quite a change, and people often ask me this question and I'd say the thing that was really exciting for me, I mean, gosh, there were so many things that were exciting about being at the Armory. But the thing that I really go back to is that we created a whole new type of cultural institution in New York, and it was a big proof of concept. The whole thing, for the many years was "What's going to work? What isn't going to work? How are artists going to respond? And how are artists going to surprise us and inspire us?" And that was like the best, right? So when they approached me about the job in Charleston, the interesting thing to me was there was this gorgeous new facility, and there was this interest in adventurous art that was signified by Spoleto being in Charleston. And the institution hadn't quite found out who it was. And so they wanted someone to come in and help them think about that, and what type of cultural institution was the Gaillard going to be? And so that was really intriguing to me and exciting. And I think it's an extraordinarily rewarding journey, for sure.

Jo Reed: Well, you have a background, or master's degree in urban planning, and I'm so curious how that's influenced your approach both in New York and now in Charleston.
 
Lissa Frenkel: Yes, I think this is such an interesting lens. I feel like everybody should hire a project manager who knows how to urban plan. It's funny because the president at the Park Avenue Armory, Rebecca Robertson, she also is an urban planner, so we'd often talk about this. I have always been a lover of the arts, I have a degree in art history. My undergraduate degree is in art history, but I got my start at the Museum of the City of New York in New York, and I became fascinated with urbanism and urban planning and really the physical design and how it affects your use of cities. And so I went to the Graduate School of Design at Harvard and got my master's there and got very interested in the idea of cultural redevelopment and how culture can change the way communities develop and grow. And so I worked my first job out of graduate school at Lincoln Center, rethinking that campus on the Lincoln Center Redevelopment Project, which turned into a billion-dollar renovation of Lincoln Center, which I'm very proud of being part of because I think it really turned out really wonderfully. That was a really interesting way in, to think about the arts and accessibility because that was really the driver for the Lincoln Center renovation. And then I was asked to join Rebecca over at the Armory and think about that space from really the physicality of it as an adaptive reuse project with Herzog and Demeron as our architects. And that was a whole process of community meetings, and there was a lot of NIMBYism for the Park Avenue Armory coming into that community initially, but through the process of developing that new arts institution and the proof of concept process that we went through, I fell in love with the programming and the operating of these cultural centers as well. And so really coming to the Gaillard is a culmination of all those things because I think of the renovation that happened in 2015, the idea being that it was part of the revitalization of Charleston and really the community planning a flag in the sand and saying we're going to make culture a big part of that. And so I'm proud of the Gaillard being a real important part of that initiative.
 
Jo Reed: I find it so interesting when the arts and culture are at the center of urban planning as opposed to something that comes on at the end "Oh, we need a green space somewhere." "Oh, yeah, okay, over there."
 
Lissa Frenkel: Yeah, you have to have nuanced and smart mayors and governors to make that happen, in the right order.
 
Jo Reed: Words of love for Joe Riley.
 
Lissa Frenkel: Exactly, Joe Riley, yeah, he really understood it. Mayor Riley really set the stage in making the arts a priority for the city, and I think the mayor since then, Tecklenburg and now our new mayor, have both been extraordinarily supportive of the Gaillard and of our efforts to make sure that arts have 52 weeks a year presence in this community.
 
Jo Reed: And so you really can see the Gaillard Center continuing to be a catalyst for economic development in Charleston, as well as community engagement, that these things just go hand in hand.
 
Lissa Frenkel: Yeah, I completely believe that. And I mentioned before, we organize this arts convening here and our hope is that we can take the power of all of the arts institutions in Charleston and focus that towards a common goal of making the arts really stay central as our community grows, because it's growing at a rapid, rapid pace. We just, for 12 years straight, were named travel and leisure's top city in America, and the word is out, people are moving here in droves. And that's great because we find that, again, a lot of those people are from cities that really expect extraordinary art to be part of their lives, and so we know that they're going to come looking at the Gaillard and want to become members and advocate with us. But as the city grows, I think it's our responsibility to make sure that the arts remain part of that plan and that we have a voice at the table.
 
Jo Reed: So let's talk about some of your upcoming program, especially your programming in the fall. Fall for Democracy. Tell us about this program and its objectives.
 
Lissa Frenkel: Yes, I am so excited about that one. So obviously we're all thinking about democracy this year, and so we thought, what better way than have the artists help guide this discussion for us in a way that is nuanced and different than what we're hearing on the news or we're getting on our phones. And so we really set the premise just started at the base, which is that the premise that democracy is about inclusion, it's about every person has a voice. And we started to think about what voices have been marginalized in this march historically, in our march towards creating a wonderful democracy here in America. And so we've created a platform for talking about LGBTQ voices, we have a wonderful presentation with Alan Cumming and Ari Shapiro to kick off that program. We're featuring Indigenous voices with Martha Redbone and the American Patchwork Quilt Quartet called This Land is Our Land. And we have Rhiannon Giddens coming with the Silk Road Ensemble with the American Railroad Project, which is about the immigrant groups that built the American Railroad. So we're really excited about what the artists have to tell us, and there's so many more other things kind of embroidering this, but we just think it's such an important topic, and especially today in this nation where we kind of sit in our silos, it's nice to get everybody in a room and have the artists lead the way.
 
Jo Reed: You also have the League of Women Voters there.
 
Lissa Frenkel: Yes. So we will have the League of Women Voters at every performance all fall, not just the Fall for Democracy programs, but every single one, to remind folks to get involved with their democracy and vote. And we also have our first visual art installation, which will be exciting. It's with an organization called Stan's Cafe, and it's called All the People in the World, the American Democracy Version. And it will be an installation of rice. We have over three tons of rice coming into the building, and each (grain of) rice will represent one person, and we will be examining various statistics around our democracy using this installation. And so it will be something like the entire eligible voting population of South Carolina and the number of people who actually vote, or looking at that in conjunction in relation to the voting population of the nation. And so I think that's going to be a really wonderful way for the students to get engaged with democracy, and for them to understand and think about these statistics. And of course, rice is so significant here in Charleston, so this is especially poignant for us.
 
Jo Reed: And I'm assuming with Fall for Democracy, with all those programs, there's also an outreach going into the schools, going into the communities as well?
 
Lissa Frenkel: Yes, absolutely. So the major one, we're going out into the schools, and the major one that we're focusing on is the Indigenous voices. And so we have engaged with a number of Indigenous tribes that have a presence here in Charleston and have their home here in South Carolina. And really using that performance and engagement to help give the teachers an opportunity to engage with the history of Indigenous people in our region and their current experience as citizens of our country.
 
Jo Reed: I would love to have you say just a few more words about really the importance of the arts to if not build dialogue, really enhance dialogue around really difficult conversations. As you say, two people who disagree politically find they have very little common ground on which they can talk, but if there's a performance in which somehow this is being discussed, that conversation, I'm not saying will happen, but it's much more possible.
 
Lissa Frenkel: Yes, I do believe that too. And I think we really have been deliberate about trying to give everybody a way in to these conversations. And so we have a couple of speakers that we're adding to the program that I can't talk about in as much detail as I'd like, because they're not going to come out until the end of the month. But I will say that one of them will provide a really interesting lens from the military perspective, and I think that's something that is an entry point for a lot of our community members, because many of them are involved in the military, and there's a big presence here in Charleston, and just thinking about American democracy with the lens of the whole world. So we're excited to open up that conversation and talk about democracy and America's role in ensuring that continues around the world. And then we also have another speaker that's going to be talking about sort of the other end of the spectrum, we're talking about access to literature and the effort to ban some books. And so there is an opportunity to talk about this topic with an author who's experienced that. And so I just think it's going to be fascinating, and even if I disagreed with one of these people, I'd love to hear what they have to say, these are thought leaders in the world. So I'm really excited about the conversations. 
 
Jo Reed: So tell me, what do you see as the biggest challenges and opportunity for the Gaillard Center going forward?
 
Lissa Frenkel: You know, we have big ambitions. We talked a little bit about post-pandemic audiences. They're not quite as big as they were pre-pandemic. We're still looking for support to build our program. And I'd say that making sure Charleston is at the table when it comes to the national conversation about the arts, that's a challenge that we're working on because we're a smaller community. Actually being supported by the National Endowment for the Arts is a part of that, because a lot of these national foundations that help to make sure stories are told in our country look for that. And so that's something that we're just like, "Hey, we're this little community over here, but we have a lot of big things to say and we're doing interesting things in the South," and we think that's important. So making sure, you know, bringing the Gaillard to that national stage, I think is a focus and a challenge. And I think diversifying audiences, we've really made strides in those areas, but I'd really love to be able to in five years say our audiences match the demographic of our community. And I think that's an uphill battle and I am up for it, but we're fighting our way up that hill. And I think like everybody, really feel that that's important and worth dedicating the time to tackle.
 
Jo Reed: And what is your favorite part of your job?
 
Lissa Frenkel: Well, I have a couple of different favorite parts. I love it when the artists surprise you. When you come in and you say, "Oh my goodness." Of course I wouldn't have thought of that, because I'm not the artist, but every single time, I'm like blown away by the talent of these individuals and the way that they choose to express themselves. AndI feel privileged to have my job be to interact with these amazing artists. And so that's fun, like in the creation of the work, when you have a little window into a commissioning of a project and you're seeing something develop, but it's also wonderful…I think about the different ways our audiences participate in the work, and when I think back to the Robert Smalls theatrical production that we talked about earlier, we spent months working on this project and rehearsing it. And we weren't sure how the audiences were going to receive it, and we had to have the performances with the students. And of course they were wonderful, but the kids are up and out of their seat every performance, they're so excited and they're so engaged, and they're not embarrassed to express themselves in the theater. And so the first night of the public performance comes up and there's this really poignant moment when Robert Smalls escapes and it's clear that they've flown the white flag and the union is there, and they've escaped. And his mother is on board the ship and she sings Amazing Grace on the stage. And the audience started singing Amazing Grace. It's those moments where you just are tears in your eyes, you just think, "Oh my gosh, no one's going to forget this night." It is such an important thing to put this work on the stage and to have live performance be the way this story is told. And it just is extraordinarily rewarding.
 
Jo Reed: And I think that's a good place to leave it. Lissa, thank you. Thank you for giving me your time. Thank you for the terrific work you're doing.
 
Lissa Frenkel: Oh, thank you. I feel really privileged to have been invited to the program, and thank you for the work you do.
 
Jo Reed: That was CEO for Gaillard Center Lissa Frenkel—keep up with all the work done by Gaillard Center onstage and off at GaillardCenter.org. You’ve been listening to Art Works produced at the National Endowment for the Arts. Follow us wherever you get your podcasts! I’m Josephine Reed Thanks for listening.