Interview by Josephine Reed for the NEA July 14, 2011 Edited by Liz Stark and Ann Waller Curtis

NEA: Would you explain what taiko is?

Roy Hirabayashi: Taiko is the word for the Japanese drum, and actually refers to all the different kinds of drums that you may see or hear in Japan. But what we're doing is what we refer to as kumi-daiko, which means ensemble drumming. And the difference is historically that the taiko drum in Japan has been used for many different kinds of purposes and occasions. You would see it in the festivals, in the temples. Historically it was used to send the field commands across the battlefield. But most popularly, you would see it in many different festivals throughout Japan. You would many times see the taiko being used to accompany other type of art forms -- singing and dancing, or the more classical forms. The kumi-daiko form that we're doing, or the ensemble form, is primarily using taiko as an instrument and not an accompaniment so much. The singing and dancing is not the primary focus; it's the drumming itself. And that started in Japan actually, relatively recently. Traditionally it's not a really old art form. We refer to taiko as starting about 1951 in Japan, and it came over here to the United States in this form in 1968.

PJ Hirabayashi: Just to add a little bit to what Roy has been speaking about, the kumi-daiko actually was kind of fostered by Daihachi Oguchi from Suwa in Nagano Prefecture, and basically he was a Western trap player and, in the '50s, he decided to combine the taiko [drums] to be the voices and sounds of the Japanese.

NEA: You began San Jose Taiko in 1973. Can you give me a little bit of background about how San Jose Taiko got started?

Roy Hirabayashi: We started the idea of doing taiko in San Jose through the San Jose Buddhist Church. It began as an activity to try to bring the youth into the temple. The minister that was there, Reverend Hiroshi Abiko at that time, he suggested maybe we should try to do this activity and see what would happen. So he recruited two of us -- myself and Dean Miyakusu. We decided just to try to do this -- we had no clue how to form a taiko group because I had never done [taiko] before. I had done other kinds of music growing up but never taiko or a Japanese art form like this. And so we just really kind of jumped into it a little bit blindly, but we learned how to make our first drums and some basics from the group called Kinnara Taiko in Los Angeles, who had started just before us. After we got it started, we were able to learn some other basic forms from Seiichi Tanaka, the San Francisco Taiko Dojo.

NEA: What attracted you to taiko, PJ?

PJ Hirabayashi: I have to say it's the power and the energy, and being a Japanese-American woman, there was kind of this relatedness that I had to do [taiko] because it has so much power. I was not really interested in the very quiet and very meditative, sedate art forms such as classical dance or the tea ceremony or flower arranging. Everything embodied in taiko is from something that was sports-like, including some theatrics. It was just everything that I ever dreamed of.

NEA: You were trained as a dancer, weren't you? So you really had a sense of performance and physicality.

PJ Hirabayashi: Absolutely. I think that's what really attracted me [to taiko]. Because in my body, there was just that seed of wanting to move, something that could just be expressed so unabashedly. And to do that with music, drums, the body moving -- it just spoke to me very loudly.

NEA: Now, when we think about the time that San Jose Taiko started in 1973, that was a period of great activism in the Bay Area in California, and that kind of informed the way you went about beginning taiko. Isn't that true, Roy?

Roy Hirabayashi: Yes, very much so. Prior to even thinking about doing taiko, I was pretty heavily involved in the Asian-American scene in the Bay Area, primarily on campus at San Jose State and also in the Japantown community in San Jose. And as you mentioned, the late '60s, early '70, there was the antiwar movement, the beginning of ethnic studies, the beginning of Asian-American studies, and different kinds of programs like that were happening on the campuses. I was really interested in learning more about my heritage, growing up as a third-generation, or sansei, Japanese American here in the United States. I wanted to know more about my heritage and there was a lot to learn at that time.

NEA: I read an interview you gave where you said you thought that taiko really worked against stereotypes of the meek Japanese American because it's so physical and loud.

Roy Hirabayashi: Right. Taiko has given me the opportunity to express myself in a different way that no other instrument has been able to do. It's helped me connect to my heritage; it's not the stereotypical art form that people imagine with the Japanese culture. And so it is very vibrant, and it's very powerful, not only in our own Japantown, but also in a larger community. And so it was a great connection in order to really see how that could be used in many different ways.

NEA: And I know, PJ, as you alluded to earlier, it was working against gender stereotypes as well.

PJ Hirabayashi: Absolutely. I think my first inspiration was seeing San Francisco Taiko Dojo and they included a mother and a daughter who were playing together equally on stage with men, and there was no gender difference at all. So that was kind of, "That's my calling. I want to do that."

NEA: Now, in 1973, there were other two taiko groups, one in San Francisco and one in Los Angeles. How did you go about learning?

Roy Hirabayashi: I wish back then we had the Internet and everything else, but there was nothing. The resources were very limited, and so we had to be very creative on our own in order to develop. It was just trying to see as much as possible and learn from whatever resources were available. And, as mentioned, Kinnara Taiko and San Francisco Taiko Dojo were the only two here. Eventually there was a group called Ondekoza from Japan that started touring in the United States. So seeing what they were doing was really an early start for us to examine what taiko was like coming from Japan. Early on, because we did not have those resources, or even a teacher that we could identify as a leader of our group, we formed sort of a collective style of operating. More importantly, I think, really early on we decided to start writing our own music based upon our own experiences and influences and what we felt was important, using the taiko.

PJ Hirabayashi: I think there were a lot of questions about whether we were being respectful of playing the correct way from Japan. But at that time, there were only LPs to refer to, other than the direct link with Seiichi Tanaka, who is also an NEA National Heritage Fellowship recipient. I think what was very important was that we wanted to create our own voice, to have our experiences of having grown up in America really get reflected in our art form. Therefore our music instantly became very cross-cultural in nature. I think we were also being very true to who we were, also using taiko as a tool for that expression -- not just for our own self-development but for a group of people playing and discovering and exploring where it could possibly go. Knowing that we are doing this as a community effort as well to contribute to our Japantown community in San Jose, that's what enlightened us to really want to take taiko to wherever it could possibly go.

NEA: What did those first drums look like? It would have to take a while to learn how to really make a taiko drum.

PJ Hirabayashi: Well, it looks like a wine barrel, which it was. All beat up. We still use some of these wine barrels as our practice drums, so they're as ancient as the group is -- 38 years old. Very battered and splinted and, in some areas, concaved.

Roy Hirabayashi: We had to be so resourceful early on. We were being taught that you could take a wine barrel and make a drum out of it by putting a hide onto it. But we were finding used barrels and trying to convert them to taiko, and so they were out of shape, or already beaten up somewhat. So we had to try to finish it off in different ways. And then we started creating a process to understand how to make a better drum out of that. So that was the early stages of our group, just trying to figure out how to make better instruments ourselves. The style we developed early on helped create the template for how most American taiko groups make their drums now. So that's exciting -- that we were able to help move that forward. The wine barrel concept…was so important to the growth of taiko in America because without that, taiko would not be anywhere near to what it is today because no one could really afford to buy those kind of instruments and bring them here.

NEA: How were the traditional drums made in Japan?

PJ Hirabayashi: The traditional drum in Japan is actually made out of a hollowed tree trunk. Of course they just don't hollow it out just to get one taiko body, [they get] other sizes of barrels out of one trunk. But unlike American taiko, it's staved. So it's the wine barrel that has pieces that are shaped into the barrel. There is a difference in sound quality. But at the same time, there was no way that we could possibly buy a taiko from Japan because it was just too exorbitant in price. So the wine barrel was the alternative. And interestingly, some Japanese looked at our design and started to make staved taiko barrels.

NEA: It seems, when I look back at what you envisioned and how you moved forward, it is so ambitious in the best possible way. You had to make your own instruments, write your own music. You were taking a tradition and preserving it and honoring it, but at the same time expanding it and taking in influences from where you lived then, working in concert but also working in community and doing it all.

Roy Hirabayashi: We didn't see that happening early on, naturally, but as we look back, yes. I think what was important for us is that we were trying to create our own sound and be connected to our culture and heritage. As we started to move forward, we discovered that more people, not just Japanese Americans, but people in general, were becoming interested in what the taiko was all about. It really did take off, and that's what's been exciting for us. We have been trying, I guess all along, to make a statement in our own way as far as creating the art form here in the United States, because I think we realized early on that we had the opportunity to really do something different here, using an instrument that is not really well known, but to create the art form here, even beyond what was happening in Japan. And so we were a little bit bold at the time to try to make the decision to really go beyond what was happening traditionally even in Japan to create our multicultural sound or our voice in that way using taiko, but rhythmically in many different other styles.

PJ Hirabayashi: With both Roy and myself being involved in Asian-American studies, there was kind of a platform about serving our community. If you were in Asian-American studies, it wasn't all about scholastic studies; besides, there weren't many reference books or resources to really read back in the '70s. The main spirit of community-building, to serve the people, I think that really was a part of how we looked at developing San Jose Taiko; that there was no way that we would have a sensei, as in Japan, to tell us what to do, or "This is the way to do it." We had to work collectively, very collaboratively, in order to maintain our organization. We were also trying to level the playing field -- everybody contributing as equally as possible -- and I think that in itself has been our enduring principle.

NEA: You combine self-expression with community-building.

PJ Hirabayashi: Absolutely. I think it's very, very necessary that they go hand in hand, that people come to the table being able to participate fully, and I think that's what art should be about.

NEA: How many people are in San Jose Taiko? How many group members?

Roy Hirabayashi: Right now the performing company is about 18 members.

NEA: And how many people are likely to be on the stage at the same time?

Roy Hirabayashi: It varies. Like at our larger festivals, when we're home, we'll have almost the entire company participating. Normally when the company's out on tour, our concert program is [made up of] just eight performers.

NEA: And how many drums are likely to be on stage at the same time?

Roy Hirabayashi: Well, during the entire program, we're using a lot; a variety of drums are going on and off for different pieces or songs that we created. For the tour, we'll take out anywhere between 25 to 30 different drums during any one tour, depending what the program is all about.

NEA: So everybody works as one. How do you achieve that?

Roy Hirabayashi: That's something that we worked really hard on trying to do, and I think it's sort of a signature of what San Jose Taiko is all about -- creating a unified look as far as our performances, a style of the choreography of the piece or the movement, and just how everyone is participating in different ways. For us, it's very important that there are no differences between the male and female roles, so everyone is cross-trained in all parts of the different songs and different drums and instruments. Anyone should be able to play any part. It's not a gender-based position. What we were trying to do is develop leadership from the top-down that's all equal. Everyone is able to participate and take part in the leadership of the organization or the group as we're moving forward. Even during practices, there are many times when not just one person is leading the rehearsal, but there could be several members of the group taking on different segments of the practice in order to teach different parts and instruct and lead. That piece is sort of coming from the collective process that we tried to initially use in the development of our organization, and that's been a really important part of how we've tried to develop San Jose Taiko.

PJ Hirabayashi: Artistically, we also encourage our members to contribute to our repertoire of songs. And so we have quite a range of expression that comes into play. It does become very holistic in the way San Jose Taiko operates as a company.

NEA: San Jose Taiko didn't begin as a professional company, but became one. Can you tell me how that evolved?

Roy Hirabayashi: It was really community based, and it began, as we mentioned, out of the temple. Rapidly it became a group of people within a community that were interested in doing this just for fun. That's when we started forward and started learning more about what taiko was all about and seeing other groups. And again, at the same time, writing our own music and trying to put our own program together and our own style together. We soon began to realize that we had an art form or style that was different than what other groups were doing, especially those from Japan. And that was an early concern for us -- whether or not people in Japan would recognize that what we're doing as third-generation Japanese Americans, removed from what's happening in Japan, using taiko that we made ourselves in America, would be something that they could recognize as different and also that they could appreciate. In 1987, we had an opportunity to go to Japan to tour with the Japan-based group, Ondekoza, and that was the point when we were able to take our music, and actually our instruments too, and show the people -- the Japanese people -- what we were trying to do. That was interesting, because we were touring a joint program with Ondekoza, and so the audience was able to see the two different styles on the same stage at the same time, and to compare them. We found that most of the people in Japan realized that we were different, and appreciated what we were doing. After that trip, we realized that we had something we wanted to really try to move forward, and it was important for us to really think about how we would actually make this into a program that we could take to a broader audience. We felt it was an important statement to really talk about what it is to be Japanese American or Asian American here in the United States, and creating this art form in that way.

PJ Hirabayashi: I think it's very important to say that we didn't know about the diaspora, the experience of our cultural heritage. We didn't want to copy what was already being done in Japan. To go professional, or create a professional company, and reach other communities that would not otherwise see taiko being performed in their community, we wanted people to understand that we are not from Japan, that we are home-bred here in America, and that we are actually developing this art form.

Roy Hirabayashi: Organizationally, what was really important for us at that time in the early '90s was that we had an opportunity to go through the National Endowment for the Art's Advancement Program. That program was the one that really set us up organizationally to take a hard look at what we were doing in order to frame the whole business side of how we were going to operate from that point forward.

NEA: Is it fair to say that that's the point that you realized San Jose Taiko was going to be your life's work, or had you already known that?

Roy Hirabayashi: Well, definitely I think we all really wanted just to do taiko more in different ways, and we were hoping that it could become a full-time job. Up to that point, we were all still working other jobs or doing other things, and trying to do as much taiko as possible. And so, yes, that was the critical point because at that point we were able to actually start hiring people on staff and creating the opportunity for people to do this on a full-time basis. Up to that point, we just felt it was more community-based, like I said, almost like a hobby. And then it just became a passion that we are still continuing.

NEA: You are very committed to the community, yet at the same time the company is touring internationally and nationally. How do you stay rooted to the community in San Jose?

PJ Hirabayashi: On many different levels, but number one is that we started in San Jose Japantown. Japantown in San Jose happens to be only one of three Japantowns remaining in the whole United States that really has a geographic Japantown. We feel that we are part of the vitality and the preservation of that particular community. We also take pride in the fact that we are San Jose Taiko. Our promoters have said, "Can't you get a sexier name, other than San Jose?" No. San Jose is who we are. Wearing the badge of the city of San Jose, that's another [example] of how we remain rooted to the community. And it just ripples out even farther, because taiko in general has just become so popular throughout the world that it can be found in Europe, it can be found in Southeast Asia, beyond Japan. And we're finding that this taiko community is a very vital force, one that connects people.

Roy Hirabayashi: There are several community festivals that go on annually within Japantown or around San Jose that we're really committed to doing in order to support the larger community. Those are also very important for us. No matter where the company is on the road, we're trying to make sure that we're also servicing our local community at the same time. With the numbers of performers we have, we were able to have a company on the road and still have performances going on at home, along with classes, because the classes that we teach for the youth and other adults are really important.

NEA: Tell us about the workshops you started.

Roy Hirabayashi: Many years ago we started offering community workshops for people just to try taiko out of interest. One main reason we started is we were using it as a recruitment process, to identify people who might be interested in having some skill base in order to join the company in some way. But we realized that there were a large number of people who wanted to come just for recreational purposes. We also realized there were a lot of younger folks, the youth, that really wanted to learn. Parents were asking us to teach classes for their kids, so we started a Junior Taiko Program in 1985. I believe it's the oldest youth-specific taiko program here in the U.S., and we now have about 75 to 80 students in that program. It varies year to year, with six different levels of classes that run primarily January through June. And we also have adult classes that are just for recreational purposes.

Roy Hirabayashi: In our youth-specific program the kids start as early as eight years old, and they come in once a week to take group lessons. Out of that, we also have what we call our Junior Taiko Performing Ensemble, which is a performance group that does mainly peer performance types of activities in schools or other local community events. We also have our artistic staff members go into the schools doing for assemblies during the school year. In the San Jose area, we'll usually go to about 25 to 30 schools per year.

NEA: And wasn't there talk about San Jose Taiko opening a conservatory? Is that in the works?

Roy Hirabayashi: Actually, it's more than in the works. We're working on a physical space right now, but the programs have all been put into place to some extent, starting with our Junior Taiko Program and the adult classes. The other primary class we have is our training program for members wanting to join the company. In our master classes, we go out to teach in different ways and in different places.

PJ Hirabayashi: [The training program has] developed over the years, and it does require quite a commitment. It is a two-year program, in which case we identify people at the very beginning. We interview them to see if there's a mutual fit. When we recruit people, it's not [just looking for people who] love playing taiko. We want people to love playing taiko, but they also know it's not just about hitting the drum. It's also about community-building. We have broken our first year of training down into three phases. The first phase is about 12 weeks, which we consider boot camp, and [the participants] experience the very foundation of San Jose Taiko's style, and taiko in general. Phase Two is about 16 weeks, in which the trainee is incorporating a lot more songs to learn, to be combined with the performing company. We also add practice time so that they understand there's a little bit more time commitment. We also have lectures in which we present information about the historical past of taiko and the growth of taiko in the U.S. and in the world so that people can understand the context of how they're involved. At the end of one year, there is a review to see if this person has the potential to enter the company. The second year becomes more like an apprenticeship, where they will be playing and performing with the [actual group] members.

NEA: When we see a performance of San Jose Taiko, it's so polished and beautiful, with everybody working together, but you're always exploring new creative possibilities with taiko. You're often performing original music. What does the first rehearsal look like of a piece? How do you get to the finished product?

Roy Hirabayashi: Each composer may have a different process in how to put forward or present a new song. If we're working in collaboration with other artists outside of the group, it's even a longer or more involved process, which we're actually doing right now with a couple different groups. But in general, for a new piece that's done internally, it is not typically presented all in one chunk at one time. Many times, it's just certain sections that are being presented over a period of time so that people get an idea of what the rhythm patterns are. The composer has a feel for what might be happening using these different patterns, hearing it in different ways with the drums. It's so difficult sometimes to be writing something on paper, or if you're doing it on a computer it's perhaps even more dangerous, versus actually hearing it live with a whole set of drums happening, because the sound is so different. So it gives the composer an opportunity to really kind of try different things in order to finesse their ideas before they are actually presented in actual song format.

NEA: And there's choreography that goes along with taiko. It's a very visual music. How does that develop?

PJ Hirabayashi: Like what Roy was saying, it depends on the composer. Sometimes the choreography comes attached with the ideas of the rhythm patterns. There are basics in structure that are considered San Jose Taiko [style] that we encourage the composer to include…but they can expand the choreography as long as there's that rootedness and that centeredness that is San Jose Taiko's signature.

NEA: So often people seem to take artistic excellence and community-building and look at it, if not oppositional, always sensing that one has to sacrifice one for the other. But clearly, I think you would argue, that is simply not the case at all.

Roy Hirabayashi: Oh, definitely. I think we both feel that it's definitely a partnership that can happen. For us, I think there were a lot of other elements or different components that helped build to what we're doing now, and we talked a lot about the community-building and the music and the artistic, which are very important components. But it's really all of it together, in the sense that we were, again, trying to build or create an art form out of hardly anything. Having the opportunity to do that I think was, I guess, the challenge, but at the same time the excitement was what really kind of helped move us forward.

NEA: You recently made a decision to step away from the leadership of San Jose Taiko. Tell me why, and what you're doing now.

Roy Hirabayashi: We decided to step down from our titles. I was the executive director, and PJ was artistic director. We decided to do that because we felt it was a good time for us. I guess what was significant in our lives is that we both turned 60 within this last year. In Japanese tradition or in life, when you turn 60 it is really a significant year for you. You've gone through five life cycles, basically -- the lunar cycle of 12 years -- and so at that point, at 60, you're at a point in your life where you're supposedly going back to a little bit of your childhood, but at the same time you have all this knowledge in order to go forward at a different level of thinking. And so we decided that at 60 it would be a good time to step down and to turn over the reins of San Jose Taiko to the next generation, and still be here, or be able to do other projects and move on to do other things. So we're at that point right now. I'm still a little bit in transition, but I'm real excited about the next steps.

PJ Hirabayashi: It has been very exciting, in that San Jose Taiko was never about one or two people being in charge of the company. We developed San Jose Taiko to basically be all leaders, and that [means] trusting in the process -- that we have developed the leadership who can continue what has already been laid before them. That's exciting, because we feel that we're not running away from anything, or feeling that something's going down with the ship. It feels very wonderful. It feels healthy, that there's new energy and new creativity that wants to take San Jose Taiko forward. For me, becoming 60 also became a time of reflection. Never had I asked myself, until people started to ask me, "PJ, what do you really want to do?" I said, "Well, I have been doing what I really want to do," and that's doing taiko. But now that we've stepped away from the leadership, I am really focusing on a project that I'm trying to create. It's called Taiko Peace, and in all of my involvement with taiko activities, in the way I teach, the way of community-building, the way of doing workshops and collaborations with other artists, I really want to bring in the concept of working with peace as a central component. I am using Karen Armstrong's Charter for Compassion as kind of my baseline of how I interconnect, how I relate, how I teach, how I communicate, how I build, and this is what Taiko Peace is going to be about.

NEA: How did you find out you were going to receive a National Heritage Fellowship Award?

Roy Hirabayashi: Well, I came into the office and there was a message from Barry [Bergey, NEA Director, Folk and Traditional Arts] saying, "Please give me a call." And so we called back right away. And I thought, "Oh, are we in trouble here or what?" Then he just told us the announcement. Well, we naturally knew that our names were nominated, but it was a few years back, so we had kind of forgotten about it. And so we were just totally surprised that this was happening.

NEA: PJ, were you there, or did you find out from Roy?

PJ Hirabayashi: Yeah, I was there, but Roy took the call. And so when he got off, I, of course, said, "Well, what was that about?" And we were both in shocked elation.