Music Credits: “NY” composed and performed by Kosta T, from the cd Soul Sand. Used courtesy of the Free music Archive

Jo Reed:  From the National Endowment for the Arts, this is Art Works. I’m Josephine Reed. Today we’re marking National Disability Employment Awareness Month with a conversation with two champions of the disability rights movement James LeBrecht and Day Al-Mohamed.  Day is an author, filmmaker, disability policy strategist, and a member of the Coast Guard Auxiliary. She just finished her tenure at White House as the Domestic Policy’s Council’s Director of Disability Policy. She’s also the director of the documentary The Invalid Corps, a film about disabled veterans' contributions during the Civil War, her first film as a blind filmmaker. Jim LeBrecht is a film and theater sound designer and mixer, author, disability rights activist, and filmmaker who with Nicole Newnham produced and directed the Academy Award nominee for Best Documentary Crip Camp- which tells the story of Camp Jened which ignited a community of people with disabilities to fight for their rights.  Day and Jim are also two of the founders of FWD-Doc--a global, intersectional community of disabled creators and allies working in media to build a more inclusive, accessible, and equitable entertainment industry--one that cultivates and champions disabled media-makers, and elevates stories by, for, and about disabled people. 

When I spoke with them during the summer, I asked Jim how FWD-Doc came to be.to share its origin story.

James LeBrecht: It's actually a lovely story FWD-Doc began during the International Documentary Association's Getting Real Conference in 2018. I had put together a workshop that-- or a panel, let's call it-- that focused on disabled documentarians. And it was really the first time this was really a focus of a panel at IDA, but I also had arranged for us, after the panel, for anybody that was interested, to go to an adjacent room so that we could all talk a bit. In that room, we wound up having 40 filmmakers and allies. . And for the first time, a lot of these filmmakers with disabilities, they had never met anybody else who was also a disabled filmmaker. Out of that, we kind of did the old-school, "Pass the pad of paper around, please give us your name and your e-mail address, and such," and out of this came our group of four founders; so, myself, Day Al-Mohamed, Alysa Nahmias, and Lindsey Dryden. And here we are today, almost five years later, and we have well over 700 members.

Jo Reed:  And let me ask, how is the organization defining "disability"?

James LeBrecht: Well, it's a rather broad definition of disability, and in fact we have how we think about this on our website. But, basically, if you identify, then we're not asking any questions. And the most broadest terms around defining "disability" is that, if your body affects your daily living in some fashion, you have a disability.

Jo Reed: Yeah, I think that broad definition is important for listeners to know, because I found it very significant when I was looking at your website. I know numbers can be tricky, but they can also be useful. So, Day, I'm asking you, in terms of percentages of people with disability in this country, versus the representation in the film industry, what do those numbers look like?

Day Al-Mohamed: So, here's the fun part. Right? So, according to the CDC, one in four adults has a disability of some sort.  This can include mental health conditions. This can include chronic health conditions, neurodiverse folks. So, this is the broad spectrum. Now, when it comes to numbers within the film industry, it's really hard to calculate in many ways, because many folks are not out of the closet on this, because disability is one of those things where there's a question of capacity. If you say you have a disability, the immediate question someone else has, who might be hiring you for a job is, <inhales sharply> "Can this person get the job done?" And that fear is enough that many folks are not willing to actually say anything. So the numbers we have-- or that we've seen, anyway-- are actually more about who's in front of the camera, so that's very limiting. So, I mean, people go, "Is it like one percent? Is it"-- I'm like, "No. We are at percentages of a percent kind of a thing," and that's the people who are willing to be visible.  And it's including those folks who are in front of, so you're leaving out all the folks who might be directing, writing, editing. And a lot of times, even folks who are well established in their career are loath to speak out. So, I think it's only in maybe the last three years or so that we're seeing more folks being willing to identify.

Jo Reed: Well, both of you are in the filmmaking business, and you both have a disability, so you're coming to this from a place of experience and a history of activism, as well as policy work. Could you speak to that in turn? And I'm going to begin with you, Day.

Day Al-Mohamed: Sure. So, mine is actually a bit of a cheat, insofar as I came to the film community already having had a pretty long career in disability policy. So I was already known and very visible up front as having someone with a disability. I just finished my tenure as the White House Director of Disability Policy. So, it's kind of hard to kind of hide that point. In some ways, I push very hard to make more visible, and make very clear that I'm like, "Hey, we are making"-- and right now, if I have a project or on disability, I'm like, "I am making a project at <inaudible 00:07:04>. I actually would love to have folks on the team, who are part of this."  The most difficult thing is getting hired. The more people know you, and the more they know your work and your capacity, the easier it is. So, in some ways, I think I had an advantage coming in, because I could use the reputation I had in policy. And I actually started writing first, actually, so was known as an author, and used that to help support the film work. So, I was already walking in, I think, with an advantage, versus someone  with a disability, who goes, "Hey, I want to make a film." And unlike novels, where it's a one-person job-- you sit down, you write, you can then work from there-- filmmaking is a team sport. It requires building a team. It requires more money up front, and that acts as a barrier, I think, for a variety of actually marginalized populations, and that is no less true for folks with disabilities, especially when such a large percentage of us already operate at the poverty level or below.

Jo Reed: And, Jim, how did you begin your career in the arts?

James LeBrecht: Well, <laughs> I guess we can go back to high school, almost. I had kind of fallen into the drama clique in high school, and... kind of was drawn to it, and I also was always into audio. And so I wound up actually doing a little bit of sound effects work in high-school productions. And when I went off to college, I pursued doing sound for theater. And fortunately, I had a really great-- it was a drama department at the time, at UC San Diego. And it was really there that I learned that I was actually art-- well, let me not stretch this too far, but that I was artistic. I found my artistic outlet. I had this feel for how sound could work with a theatrical production. And then over the years, I became interested in the film industry, and I finally got a break there. But I became an apprentice at the age of, like, 33.

Jo Reed: Jim, theater is so different from film, even though you're working in sound, because theater is live, and anything can happen at any moment, whereas with film, it is much more proscribed.

James LeBrecht: I gave you the real short version of kind of how I got into the arts, but in reality, there was a lot of things that had to happen and/or to work to my advantage. And certainly, when I was starting out, it was more than 10 years before the ADA passed. And by the time I was leaving college, HEW  504 regs had been finally signed, but I was able to climb around in the theater, out of my wheelchair, which is really necessary for doing sound for theater. You need to listen in different locations.  I think the key was that I was able to start working, and people saw that I could do the job. And imagining that someone who was a wheelchair-user could do this job-- or almost any job, I have to say, especially years ago-- was something that people really questioned. I'm grateful that I have had these opportunities, and that I think that, when all of us do this work, we kind of prove to those that may be skeptical that, gee, maybe it is possible. It's one of these things that if you see it, you can believe it, that you can do it yourself, so it's important for us. And I think this is the beauty of FWD-Doc, is to really be out there and say to folks, "We're not telling you this is a walk in the park, but look at us, and we're going to be here to help you out."

Jo Reed: Day, let's dig a little deeper into the issues that FWD-Doc is looking to address. As we said, there’s very, very little representation of people with disabilities in mainstream media; they are underrepresented behind the camera, and then, on top of that, there are dominant myths about people with disabilities, and those myths are reinforced on screens large and small. Can you speak to this, and your work in trying to address this?

Day Al-Mohamed: Sure. So, if we're talking about the things that FWD-Doc is addressing, so, let's break that out a little, because there's a variety of things that have to happen before it can-- before we can see that kind of inclusion that we're looking for. So, if we want to talk about barriers, one, the one that first comes to most people's mind, is access and accessibility. And it is only the very first step, right? If you cannot get on set, you can't really access it. If you cannot go to a local meeting-- and that sounds like such a small, petty thing, but for many folks, your first step, "Okay, I want to make a film. What do you do?" The advice might be, "Hey, you should check out a local filmmaking group." And when they host those meetings, if that meeting is not in an accessible space, then right from the beginning, there is no access. There's no access to the opportunity to learn. And then, like I said, remember, filmmaking is a team sport. There's no opportunity to meet and get to know other folks. You work on their projects, they work on yours. That's how you build that kind of trust, and that's how you can go and grow to bigger and bigger projects. So, if there's no access, you can't go there. If there's not access at a festival, you don't even get to see your film on screen. And then, God forbid, if you do amazing things, and you go on and you win awards, and suddenly, oh, the stage isn't accessible, so we can't have you up there to speak, or to accept your award. So, right from the very beginning, access has to be a part of that. And that's access on the filmmakers' side, but let's also talk on the other side, as well, right? Let's not do our audience a disservice. You know, how often is captioning provided and put on films? More now than previously, but it's still not really a broad requirement everywhere. It should be. The same for audio description. So, just that early kind of access is a big piece of it. Two is, let's talk about the myths about work, and that's the idea, that question of capacity.  Right now, we're doing this audio, so nobody can see. I am a blind and visually impaired person. So, if a blind person walks in and says, "I'm going to direct your movie," the general response, immediate, is going to be like, "Yeah, that's not going to happen And I imagine Jim , you probably got some questions early on: "Yeah, can he really do sound? I'm like, he uses a wheelchair." And you had to show that you were capable of doing it. And it is very hard to start from that position, to be able to go, "I have to prove to be able to even get to where I can make stuff." And so that's where the idea of more folks need to have the opportunity to be able to even try. Right? So, we want to address some of those employment-based stereotypes. And those are true, not just in this industry, but they are very much so across employment more broadly. If you look at the disability employment statistics. So, we're just not there.

James LeBrecht: One of the issues I want to circle back on is just simply entry-level positions. And these are things like production assistants on sets. Well, you need to be able to do a 16-, 20-hour day, and carry 14 lattes and a bag of chips back to the actors. Well, that's going to be a little bit hard for someone like myself, who uses a wheelchair. Not that it can't be done, but the point being that things like endurance should never be a measure of someone's value. And it's not just around disability, also. These ideas that you have to prove yourself by putting in all these hours, and such, filter out people that you want to employ. It's much harder for a single parent to do this, but yet, they should be given the opportunity to pursue the career that they want, and you should not assume that the people that aren't able to do 20-hour days aren't dedicated or creative. And in reality, people from our community are folks with incredibly diverse life experiences and backgrounds and ways of thinking, let alone living in a world that wasn't built for you makes you become a natural troubleshooter or problem-solver.

Jo Reed: The theater community-- and I think the film community, too, certainly-- have been looking at this, in the wake of COVID and the shutdown, and actors coming together, and stage people, and saying, "These hours are ridiculous. We can't do this anymore." And it's just been a rethinking. And, of course, we've heard, also, at this moment, there's so much about the importance of DEI. We've heard about that in the last three years, and even seen some incremental movement in the film industry. Have people with disabilities been included in the work and discussions around DEI that you've seen?

Day Al-Mohamed: This is where, actually, I think one of the big prongs of FWD-Doc's work has been in the last few years, is any time a studio where someone has come out and says, "We are doing this DEI work," and they'll talk about what they're doing, or if a company's coming out and saying, "Here are our stats," we have tended to try and follow up, and going, "So, is disability included in that? Because you didn't mention it." And I think we tend to call folks in, rather than call folks out. And so we'll tend to do that nudge, going, "Hey, have you thought about this? Hey! You should be paying attention to this." And I know that has been a big part of our work, not just also with that side of it, but also, there are a variety of associations that we work with.  I know we've worked with the producers, I know we've talked to folks who work with the writers, and go more broadly to go, "All right, are you guys actually tracking your membership?" "How many of your members have a disability?" Many of these folks and organizations and entities don't even have a baseline. So that, I know, has been some of the key early work of FWD-Doc, has been actually just making sure it is on the radar. It's not perfect, and we're certainly not there yet, but to move forward at all, we've got to be at the table.

James LeBrecht: And to gain that data is a little bit fraught. The data just on the incoming class of new members to the Motion Picture Academy, there was no mention of disability. And this is something that I work within the Academy, and that we're talking about and trying to develop ways that we make sure that that type of information is also included. But I think one of the other keys beyond this entry-level situation or position is, how do you foster an environment where people feel safer to identify? How do we change the culture that says, "I trust that this person knows how to manage their disability," or giving people the freedom to talk about it? And we talk about accommodations at times. Sometimes there are very simple things that need to happen, to make sure someone can do their job. Everyone should be asked, when they're coming on, "What do you need to do the best job possible?" And what I'm talking about here is not necessarily centered on disability. There could be all sorts of things, like, "Gee, I live an hour away, and if I could start my day a half an hour later, I won't hit as much traffic." I mean, that's not terribly sexy, but these are the kind of examples that, when I say you're trying to accommodate to allow people to do their work, it isn't always about compensating for a disability.

Jo Reed: I wonder if the discussions around the workplace that happened during, and now, post-COVID, with workplaces really being redefined, whether that creates an opening for more accessibility: a rethinking about the way we think about the workplace and the people who work there.

Day Al-Mohamed: So, in short, yes, and then there's also that pressure that says no. So, yes, insofar so much got to be done digitally. So many things are done over Zoom. People talk about Zooming now. It's a casual way of saying it's another way to communicate. It is something that became ubiquitous. And for many folks with disabilities, transportation, getting to and from somewhere, can be really difficult. And again, earlier, I alluded to inaccessible spaces. So, suddenly, all of those networking events, all of those learning opportunities, were digital. So, many of us-- and I'll raise my hand as saying I was one of those, because I had just gotten started on doing my filmmaking work-- suddenly had this huge ability to boost our own career, because we had the chance to participate. So, now that many places are speaking that COVID is over, and they want to-- air quotes here, little air finger-quotes-- "get back to normal," whatever that may be, there is this rush to change things back to in-person. And I think one of the things you'll hear from many of the folks that we work with is, "Hey, don't lose out on what was gained by this all-digital mechanisms, because suddenly, we had access to people. We had access to information and resources that we did not have before. And if you shift back completely to some of the ways in-person work was done, we'll find that we are much more limited in scope. Why? Not because we are doing less, but because you've gone back to spaces that were not accessible, and you haven't taken what <laughs> you've learned about accessibility digitally, and applied it in the real world." So there's that pushback, and we're trying to maintain what pieces of access were gained during COVID, and what we hope folks have learned during COVID, that they will continue to apply it.

Jo Reed: Yeah, we've seen that, certainly, in the arts. People missed live performance, but at the same time, having performances that were streaming, no, it's not the same, but at the same time, it opened up accessibility for everyone. But that's the thing about accessibility. It really does benefit everybody. And I think that, to me, not in our discussion, but in the larger discussion, always seems to be the disconnect.

James LeBrecht: I think that we can't lose this access, and when you think about things like film festivals, that keeping things hybrid is really important. So, being able to have an online version or just simply these panels, in which, yes, it's going to be live, but people who aren't able to be there can still listen and participate.

Day Al-Mohamed:   A lot of the early efforts towards workplace flexibility, not just in entertainment, but more broadly, like the idea of flexing your work hours, and things like that, even before the pandemic, was not started as a disability accommodation, actually. A lot of the early workplace flexibility discussions were spearheaded, in part, by women; by women with small children at home, and by pregnant women. And in many ways, the disability community was able to join with them, and so a lot of the push for the flexibilities we see in the workplace are not just impacting disability. So, for folks who have many kids or are caretaking older adults, they have access to the arts-- not just as creators, but also as audience members-- that they did not have before. And so I think that really is a key point that you're making, Josephine, that I think really shouldn't be lost. There are so many small festivals who suddenly were having audience members from all over the country.

Jo Reed: Yeah, and I was one of them. <laughs> I mean, it was great.

Jo Reed: You know, FWD-Doc identifies and challenges and offers resources at every level of the industry. Can you walk us through your incredibly robust on-line resource page? And let’s start with your Toolkit, a 70-page document that is, first of all, written wonderfully. It's informative and not at all dry, but very entertaining, and also useful on a very fundamental level. Tell us about it.

James LeBrecht:  It was a wonderful document led by FWD-Doc, but in association with the Doc Society in the U.K. and Netflix, and it really just looked at how one could be inclusive and provide accessibility in making documentaries around disability, and it uses Crip Camp as an example. That's one thing found on our resource page. The other one is an engagement pack, which looks at how do you engage with an audience? How do you make this work? And it's a resource that-- this page <laughs> is something that I link people to almost every day. And there's a whole section on practices and resources that we recommend, and it goes into ASL and captioning, audio descriptions, accessibility, and it's really quite deep. We've really developed some materials ourselves, and also have linked to other resources and-- but the one thing <laughs> right at the top of the menu is this Film Event Accessibility Scorecard that we developed with a number of other organizations, which, if you're heading to a film festival, you can fill out a survey that says, "Well, how good was the access?" Or, "What was working, or what wasn't?" And we've encouraged a number of organizations to sign up, so that they can  the feedback from their audiences. And it's been-- the great thing about it, also, is it's simply a great checklist for any festival or event, and it doesn't even have to be about film. Really, things to think about because, often, people think that, "Gee, we're accessible because, well, the building says that they are ADA-compliant, and I'm going to hire a ASL interpreter," but there's many other things to think about that really help make the goal achievable. And that goal is, you want everyone to come in to your event or your festival, and have a welcoming experience that is really the same for everyone.

Jo Reed: Actually, I'd like you to just briefly discuss the difference between compliance and best practices. Because it seems, often, there are football fields of differences, to me.

James LeBrecht: Well, there are. The ADA-- the regulations should really be considered the floor, not the ceiling, and there's many ways to achieve its base requirements. But whenever I hear anybody say, "Well, we're compliant," it's kind of code to me that "we did the bare minimum, and we didn't really think beyond what we were told that we had to do." And so, maybe you are providing a way in, but have you wound up having automatic door openers? It's not always required in places, and I have experienced buildings in which a new theater is built. A new movie theater is built, and the seating for people who use wheelchairs is either in the back row or in the front row. Well, why wouldn't I want to sit in the middle of the theater, and why wouldn't I be given that option? Well, it's because the architect, or whoever's involved, didn't think that that was something that they had to do versus something that, if I was in the room, I would say you want to do. You want to sit where your colleagues want to sit, so that you can network or get to know each other. But if you are being removed from those areas, it tacitly says that you're, you know, you're different, and you can't do everything.

Jo Reed: I just want to continue from the audience standpoint. Can you perhaps, Day, explain the difference between closed captioning and audio descriptions?

Day Al-Mohamed: Sure. I think the difference between closed captioning and audio description, the easiest answer is, they are both accommodations, but they are for two very different audiences. Closed captioning is for folks who may be deaf or hard of hearing, insofar as that it provides the text on screen. For anyone who watches a lot of non-English films, you may be familiar with the idea of subtitles. This is not quite so different, although captions actually have a lot more to them, insofar they also can offer things about the ambiance and music being played, which you would not find on a foreign film. Audio description is for people who may be vision-impaired, so we can't see on the screen, and that is a separate, almost like an audio channel that we can listen to with headphones, that actually describes some of the elements that may be taking place on the screen. There's a lot of amusement, sometimes, when people mistake one for the other, and I'm like, "Nope, I'm blind. If you give me the tool for captions, it is not going to work for me, because I can't see the text any more than I can see the screen."

<Jo and James laugh>

Day Al-Mohamed: Just like folks who are deaf, who get handed a pair of headphones, going, "Here you go, so you can listen <laughs> to the audio description." But what it is, is they are just accommodation tools. And like I said, captioning is for folks who may be deaf or hard of hearing. And for low-vision folks or folks who are blind, that is what audio description is for. Closed captioning, which most people are familiar with on their television, where you can turn it on or off. Open captioning is also a thing, which is where the idea is, "Let's just show it in a theater with the captions on, so everybody can see them." So that way, folks who may be hard of hearing or deaf can actually just go to the theater, and not have to go, "Which is the very special showing I have to go to, so I can get what I need?"

James LeBrecht: Yeah, the experience for some people, at least with the current technology around closed captioning, is often unreliable. You know, we've been really pushing for festivals to have at least one open-caption screening of films, and... and what's important, also, is that if they're going to do that, for the love of God, advertise it.

<James and Day laugh>

James LeBrecht: I mean, let people know you're doing it.

Jo Reed: Agreed. <laughs> Agreed. I mean, when audio description is done well, it really is a thing of beauty, and I think everybody agrees it's best done in collaboration with the director. Have you seen a growth, a movement, towards this? Is this happening more?

Day Al-Mohamed: Yes, slowly but surely. Captioning got a big boost during the pandemic, in many ways, because once everyone moved digital, the requests, the requirements, the need for it grew with it, and what happened is it started becoming something that you could find as a part of that digital communication, but it also then started showing up in things that were being used for making movies, because people were asking for it. And so it became a way to start being added early on. Audio description has gotten more visibility, as well, and as you mentioned, it's done better when you have the director and the team making the film involved, because they can tell you what their intent was, versus just kind of like sending it out to do it with the audio description expert on their own. Working together, you get that richness of the film, because it is a creative element as much as anything else.

Jo Reed: It reminds me of translation; right?   You know when it's a good translation, because there's an effortlessness that hides great effort, of course.

Day Al-Mohamed: Right, and they capture the poetry of the original language, and the structure and intent of the person who wrote it, not just translating a word-- you know, taking a word and--

Jo Reed:  and putting it into Google Translate. <laughs>

Day Al-Mohamed: Yes. Yes.

James LeBrecht: Let me just say that I became aware, recently, that certain streamers are starting to provide audio description using artificial voices. And I... <sighs> I mean, you hear my kind of sigh there. It's like--

Jo Reed: May I join you in that sigh?

Day Al-Mohamed: <laughs>

James LeBrecht: I mean, you're saving money, but you're providing something with no heart, and the other point I just want to add on to all this conversation is that when we advocate for really high-quality captioning or audio description, we try to emphasize to the filmmakers that this is an artistic extension of your film. You should be involved. If you are having somebody else write your script, you have to check it to make sure that they are, at bare minimum, interpreting things correctly. But there's an art to doing this. There's an elevated way of doing all of this that really improves how your film is being represented, and the experience for your audience, and it's not for just a couple of people.

Jo Reed:  I wholeheartedly agree. I know there is big news from the International Documentary Association and its Nonfiction Access Initiative, and FWD-Doc is its advising partner. So, what is this about, and explain the significance and the goal here.

James LeBrecht: Yeah, FWD-Doc is kind of the lead organization coordinating with them. The Nonfiction Access Initiative was started through a grant from the Ford Foundation, and the idea was to support documentary filmmakers-- and actually, beyond filmmakers, documentary storytellers-- with disabilities, in their work. And so the initiative, so, when we entered into this, we thought, instead of just simply regranting money for films, that a survey would be really, really important and finding out from people what they really need. What are they really looking for in the way of support to make their films, or their podcasts, or their VR pieces? And then, with that data, which is going to be shared-- it's going to be open-source-- then the granting phase will be much more well informed, in regards to how that money and resources are going to be disbursed. I'm really excited about this. I think it's a game-changer, and we're hoping that this is something that is going to attract additional funding, so it can carry on for a number of years.

Jo Reed: And as the interview is winding down, and I'm throwing this to you, Day, because you've done so much work with policy-- if you could think about what you would wish both policymakers and the film and television industry, what they would get about accessibility that might open minds, hearts, doors?

Day Al-Mohamed: I think that the toughest thing I think, for me, and where you'll actually hear my frustration, is it's not about the "getting"; it's about the doing. The ADA's been around for more than 30 years. I think it's-- now it's-- and even DEI and DEIA work has been around for, what, maybe a couple of years now? And I think it's kind of one of these, you'll see folks put up their statements and, "This is what we're going to do." And I think it comes down to actually doing it. Be willing to give folks a chance, and hire that person with a disability. And I'm particularly critical of anyone making a film that has anything to do with disability. It's real easy to go, "Yes, we hired this one consultant to help us make this film about a disabled person or issue, whatever," but here's the thing: On a filmmaking crew, a consultant has very limited amount of power, and editorial power. That is with the producers. That's with the director. That's with the editor. You know, that's with the folks who are internal tech crew. So, if you are not hiring and bringing people onto the actual team, who have a strong say in how something is made, then that film is still going to be lacking some of the nuance of what exists in that community, and it'll fall into some of the tropes and the problems, or can. Doesn't mean it will. It runs the risk. So the idea is, hire folks. Bring them into your team, because that gives you knowledge. It can give you access, and it can lend more and make you a better filmmaker. This isn't just about diversity because it's nice. These are things that make your film better, that make your industry better, and as a whole, actually can make the country better. Why? Because everyone has a place, and has a say, and has something to offer.

James LeBrecht: I might just add to that that, in this day and age, accessibility is non-optional anymore. And also, if you are putting out a diversity statement, or a report, and if you do not include disability in that, then it's not benign; it is harmful. It is saying that we don't matter, and therefore, we're not part of this report. So, you know, I shouldn't think in the back of my mind that, "Gee, Jim, you're being a little radical here." It's like, how long are we supposed to freakin' wait to see the day in which, of course, we are part of diversity and DEI? Adding the A for "access" is essential.

Jo Reed: And I think that is a good place to leave it. Jim, Day, thank you both, and thank you for the terrific work that you do.

James LeBrecht: Well, thank you so much, Josephine.

Day Al-Mohamed: Thank you.

Jo Reed: That was Jim LeBrecht and Day Al-Mohamad.  They are filmmakers, disability rights advocates, and founders of FWD-Doc.  Check out our show notes --We’ll have links to Forward Doc and to Arts Endowment’s Careers in the Arts Toolkit a resource that promotes equity, access, and inclusion for people with disabilities seeking careers in the arts…where one of the artists we profiled was none other than Jim LeBrecht.

You’ve been listening to Art Works produced at the National Endowment for the Arts. Follow us wherever you get your podcasts and leave us a rating on Apple. It helps people to find us. I’m Josephine reed. Thanks for listening.